On temperament delusions

My post should start as the previous one: “do not blindly follow the rules!”

Astrology can tell us many things, but we should always think about what we are talking about: trusting too much to a chart is very risky sometimes, as the Ancients know quite well. William Lilly in his well known example about temperament in Christian Astrology III, cannot help to consider his direct knowledge of the man whose nativity he is studying, because astrology should be always subordinate to real life, and not viceversa .

Recently I came across in the assessment of the temperament of Pope John XXIII, in the world Angelo Roncalli. The astrologer is a good one, but it was very evident to me, an Italian, the author has no knowledge about who Angelo Roncalli was, he did neither know how he was like or why he is so famous.

in order to explain the point let us start from the chart.

Angelo Roncalli, Sotto il Monte 25/11/1881 h. 10:15 am

Angelo Roncalli, Sotto il Monte (Italy) 25/11/1881 h. 10:15 am

As known temperament should be judged from the Ascendant and Moon, the season of the Sun and the ruler of nativity.

At a quick look – with the Moon and the Ascendant in Saturn sign, the obvious conclusion is the strong melancholic influence.

Same result if we use a sophisticated traditional software:

Angelo Roncallis temperament

Angelo Roncalli’s temperament

Everything seems ok, anyway unfortunately nothing was further from truth. Angelo Roncalli was a short, fat old man with a background in Papal diplomacy, and in the people’s minds and hearts he will always be the “Good Pope”. It’s very hard indeed to find in him some of Saturnian qualities, but on the contrary it’s the sanguine temperament which prevails and so evident to be what he is remembered for.

Pope John XXIII

Pope John XXIII

Roncalli is especially known for the Speech of the Moon, where we can find all his love and empathy.

“Dear children, I hear your voices. Mine is one voice, but summarizes the voice of the whole world. Here the whole world is represented. One could say that even the moon was rushed tonight, to look at this show, which not even the Basilica of St. Peter, that has four centuries of history, has never been able to contemplate.”
“My person is nothing, is a brother who speaks to you, become a father by the will of Our Lord, but all together, fatherhood and brotherhood and grace of God, we honor impressions of this evening, which are always our feelings, as now we express them in front of sky, and in front of the Earth: Faith, Hope, Charity and Love of God, Love of the Brothers. And then all at once, aided so, in the holy peace of the Lord, to works of Good. ”
‘Returning home, you will find children. Give a caress your children and say: this is the caress of the Pope. You will find some tears to dry, say a good word: the Pope is with us, especially in times of sadness and bitterness.

Knowing a little more of John XXIII it is easy to forget Saturn and  to look at the hot & moist Moon because in the first phase, and moist because in the first house. Venus is at MC, in aspect to the Ascendant, hot & moist because oriental, in Scorpio (a cold & moist sign), and ruling and aspecting the lord of Ascendant, Saturn in Taurus.

Astrology works but we cannot work blindly, we are not diviners, we should always compare astrological results with facts, because if we do not this we are doomed to mistakes and delusions.

13 comments on “On temperament delusions

  1. […] Go on reading at International Society of Astrologers […]

  2. james says:

    i don’t know what the “sophisticated traditional software” you are using is, but if you look at the emphasis of planets in roncalli’s chart it would seem the sector most in focus runs from the ascendant to the midheaven, with the moon slightly below the ascendant and ‘technically’ in the phlegmatic region of the chart. the chart shows this sector as the ‘sanguine’ sector. the moon is 14 degrees below the ascendant. not sure how that software arrives at it’s conclusions, but if having the sun, mercury and venus in this sector with the moon not far off, perhaps the diurnal motion and positions relative to the angles counts for more then we think? what is also interesting to me is how reading a chart from an elemental angle with an absence of planets in the air signs suggests less likelihood of this person being ‘sanguine’ as well. i conclude that element considerations must pale in significance compared to quadrant sector relevance.

    • Hello, James.

      I used Astrophasis, a software elaborated inside Cieloeterra group.

      In this part the software is only partial independent by the astrologer, in fact I got the same result by hand, the prevalence of melancholic temperament, because of the Moon and Ascendant in a Saturnian sign.

      Anyway Pope John XXIII has nothing of the melancholic type. He is especially known for his good heart, for the “Pacem in terris” (Peace on the Earth), the “Speech of the moon” and his plump complexion.

      Still I would never say “sanguine” looking at the chart if I would not know about who we are speaking about.
      margherita

  3. james says:

    thanks. roncalli is a good example in many ways margherita!

    a focus on the elements/signs seems less relevant then a focus on the quadrant emphasis here. the sign emphasis of ascendant/moon is typically used as a means to define temperament. in this example if we go by that idea the focus on capricorn doesn’t give an accurate view on the temperament. perhaps relying on the moon and ascendant and the sign they are in is the wrong way to reach a definitive conclusion on temperament? that is what i think..

  4. James, what is your source for using quadrants, rather than the meth
    od used by Margherita?

    • james says:

      hi james,
      do we try to fit the astrology to the person, or do we try to understand the person and then see how the astrology fits with it?
      i think the quadrant / temperament association is ptolemy, but i am not sure. i know deb houlding discusses it in her ‘the houses – temples of the sky’ page xx1-xx111.. she cites lillys christian astrology in reference to the quarters of heaven.

      it is not a case of using quadrants instead of margherita’s methodology.. margherita shares part of her work which appears to include the use of quadrant emphasis too given the pic from the “sophisticated traditional software” she shares.

      for me it is a question of does the shoe fit or not and if not, why not? perhaps the methodology is under or over emphasizing something. that is what i am suggesting here..

      • james says:

        check out greenbaums book ‘temperament astrology’s forgotten key’ for more info if you haven’t read it already.. her approach is more medieval as opposed to hellenistic.. it is quite a thorough view on this aspect of astrology that i like to think of as the back door entrance for those traditional astrologers who are interested in psychology and yet want nothing to do with psychological astrology!!!

  5. I believe the problem is not “the traditional method is wrong” and changing it for some other method. The problem is applying it blindly.

    • james says:

      following anything blindly as you mentioned in the article is my favourite line from your article..

  6. tarot gratis says:

    Hello to every body, it’s my first pay a quick visit of this blog; this web site contains awesome and in fact good material for visitors.

  7. Hi, just wanted to say, I enjoyed this post. It was helpful.
    Keep on posting!

  8. Wolfgang says:

    Try the sideral zodiac and whole sign houses too ;-) The temperament is choleric total, with a little sang. + phleg., but Venus (con Merkur) in 11 has most dignities and Moon and Jupiter characterize the behavior of the pope.

  9. Agnikan says:

    Sanguine Jupiter aspecting the first house, the first-house, phlegmatic Moon, and fifth-house melancholic first-house ruler Saturn will give a very Sanguine temperament.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s